27 comments

• I think it would be healthy for Christians to stop seeing themselves as Sinners. I always thought that point was overemphasized even when i was a believer, but now that am I an unbeliever….. it is striking how much the sin mentality of the average Christian stands out. Looking back, I see how much time Christianity spends talking about it, worrying about it, and obsessing about it in others.

  Now that I am out, I see 98% of sin worry as completely contrived. So many believers define a major portion of their identity on their position as a sinner. Yet, when I stepped out of that thinking, I found I pretty much never “sin”. Odd to state your personal narrative according to something that takes up such a small sliver of your actions. On the other hand, most of my day is spent doing happy things, and spreading happiness to others. How much better a world where we see ourselves that way.

  Admittedly, it is the more fundamental Christian who takes on the mindset, “Have you ever lied? Then you are a LIAR!” But I have found that even the lighter, more happy versions of Christianity, often carry an anchor of “sin mentality”. They will talk about the Joy of Jesus in one sentence, and then bemoan how often they let God down in the next.

  I completely agree that people need to move past a life of focusing on behavior modification, but I think trying to do that within the context of religion is tricky indeed.

  • Whether or not you are going to come “back” (if you really ever were), if you even can, the truth is sinless perfectionism. Modern day mainstream Christianity is so out of the way, so far from its roots, the true doctrine of Holy Scripture that this so-called Christianity wouldn’t even be recognized today by the Christians of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries. All of Orthodox Christians would have thought this was some strange new Gnostic sect which was trying blend way more Orthodoxy with it but it came out still Gnostic to the core and disgusting.

• Thanks for explaining more about Grace. More and more I am seeing how important it is to embrace grace to really be free. As I was reading this, I was thinking wow.. we should really be beyond this foundational aspect in our walks, but I really think when you focus on Jesus and understand the parables, etc.. it is clear to see the love and grace he put forward and how the pharisees who thought they were so holy failed so badly. I find nothing more hurtful and rejecting as a judgmental christian (not saying this about Mr. Brown, just brothers and sister’s I’ve known).

  It’s so funny because those of us who love Jesus all fall short.. we are all the same, we do fail from time to time but there are those that pick up the stones and there are those that forgive. Obviously the ones that forgive are the ones that make you want to be the best you can. The ones that pick up the stones only cause more hurt. I am so thankful that I a forgiven daughter of the Most High!

• Andy: Yes, As a father yourself you know how good it feels when your kids are truly sorry for something wrong they have done, but you wouldn’t want that type of exchange to be the most time involved element of your relationship

  Holly: Thanks for your comment! Yes, it is over the top amazing to be called a daughter or son of the Most High!

• Steve,
  I love your take on the “grace camp.” You are right. It is a bad idea to draw lines between Us and Them since we are all one in Christ. I have unthinkingly referred to the grace camp in the past. Never again. Labels diminish us.

• Steve,

  I just spotted a link to your site here and wanted to thank you for your desire to be irenic and recognize our greater unity in Jesus. I too speak as a brother to brothers! We have our differences, and hopefully we can sharpen each other in the Lord. Grace to you!

• Thanks Paul! Appreciate your thoughts on that…

• Dr. Brown,

  Thanks for taking the time to comment. It’s not often I get input from the subject of the post 🙂 I do appreciate your kindness in a potentially divisive issue and although we probably disagree on some issues here and there, what unites us in Christ far outweighs that. It’s a privilege to co-labor with you…Steve

• “But if we are even asking the question, “With Grace am I still allowed to sin?” we are not fully understanding Grace because you are asking the wrong question? By God’s grace through Christ you are no longer a “sinner” but his child. You are not a hired hand who can be dismissed for poor performance but a family member with your own seat at the Lord’s Table. It’s not about what you can get away with, it’s about who you are!”

  With respect, that doesn’t really answer the question.

  • Chikirin,

    I appreciate the comment but my response is that if someone is asking that question they are not “getting it”. It’s as if the boss’ son is starting his first day at work. The Chief of Staff is showing him his new office and all the wonderful privileges he will enjoy in addition to incredible authority and discretion he will have to expand his Father’s business. So then the son turns to the Chief of Staff and responds, “That cool, so what happens to me if I start abusing the employees…do I still get to be a son?”

    I mean, what do you do with that? How do you respond? Is it even a question to be asked? I suppose the answer is “yes” however there may be other issues to deal with first

• Hey Steve,
  Great article. I have been a financial supporter of Dr Brown for a while now
  and, he certainly puts the cat amust the pigeons.

  Do I agree with everything he says? no, and certainly not in this case of ‘Hyper grace’ I think as Paul was teaching and preaching, this comes down to the difference between law and grace, old and new, before and now. John 1:17 draws a distinction between the law and (truth) grace. As you rightly point out grace is all about our positon in Christ. That position means God sees us in a completly different perspective. I think if we focus on how God sees us, in other words how much he loves us, the more would will love him. The less likely we are to sin against him. I don’t commit adultry because the law tells me its wrong. I don’t commit adulty because I love my wife.
  Gace is a demonstration of God’s love towards us. That very love once received and understood teaches us not to sin. Titus 2:11-14
  God bless you Steve.

  • Thanks Jim! Thanks for sharing your heart…

    Cheers, Steve

• The debate in many ways mirrors the differences between Luther and Calvin. Luther emphasised the discontinuity between the covenants whereas Calvin stressed their continuity. It is not surprising therefore that a reaction against reformed teaching should generate a theological system similar to Lutheranism, with all its strengths and weaknesses. There is nothing new under the sun.

• Great post! Two things stood out to me in this.

  First: “I am very careful not to draw hard and fast lines between us. I don’t want to be in the “grace camp” and see Dr. Brown outside the “grace camp”.

  Labels can be used for good and bad. “Hyper-grace,” and the “grace camp” are used for both, depending on what “side” you’re on…and that’s a problem…for both “camps.” I think it’s OK to call things what they are, as long as it’s not used in a derogatory manner, but all too often these terms are used either to puff ourselves up, or tear others down. Neither of which are honoring to anyone; others, the one uttering it, or Christ.

  I think we are in the midst of one of the most important reformations in Christianity. Regardless of how we view the Bible, whether as basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth, infallible, inspired, flawed over centuries of human/religious influence, or entirely made up by men, whatever; for far too long, it has been used by Christians as a sword, to cut other people down. If we truly believe what the Bible says, it’s time to beat the Bible into a plowshare, and truly seek its divine Inspiration (Christ), as our true guide for life. Doing so will break down the arrogance and division that is so prevalent in the conversation, today, and open up a dialog that allows people to challenge long held beliefs, sift out the chaff, and leave behind what is pure and true.

  Second: “But if we are even asking the question, “With Grace am I still allowed to sin?” we are not fully understanding Grace because you are asking the wrong question?”

  I have had this very thought, many times. If I have truly received the grace of Christ; why would I even ask such a question? The affect of Christ living in me, making me new, and giving me a new heart, is that I don’t desire to sin any longer. If my new heart has no desire to sin; why would I entertain such a question? The fact that the question crosses my mind is an indication to me that I have yet to realize my new identity.

• I agree that hypergrace is essentially a reaction against reformed theology. The problem with much of reformed teaching is that it implies that I am horribly sinful but I am protected from Gods wrath by the righteousness of Christ which is the basis for God’s acceptance of me. Now what happens when I sin? I have now become unacceptable to God. Therefore we need to avoid sin to stay acceptable to God (now I don’t think this is the best reformed theology!). Thus confession becomes a way back into a place of grace. But if we think covenantally we know that we are in God’s family on the basis of faith in the Messiah Jesus. Family members are not ejected if they misbehave but they are disciplined. Confession and conviction should be seen as part of this discipline. God does not see me as sinful or sinless but he sees me as I am a full covenant member in the family of God on the basis of faith in a faithful Messiah. I am justified by faith. I am in God’s family by the Spirit and I am disciplined by the same Spirit. The focus is not sin or sinlessness but membership in God’s holy community.

• Thanks 2trakmind and Brian for your comments. Brian, I agree the confession part is a stumbling block for some and some “grace” teachers have got a little to vocal about NOT confessing. But Daniel Silva in his new book does a good job addressing the issue. We confess our sin but not as a means to obtain “right standing” again but to keep our hearts soft and sensitive to the Holy Spirit.

• “As a father myself I want to hear about my son’s day from his lips rather than, “Oops, I messed up again.”

  Steve, your…. what shall I call them… word pictures? always bring a tear to my eye and help me really understand my relationship with God in a practical way.

  Thanks.

  • Thanks Patrick, that is very kind!

• On the theme that hyper grace is a reaction against reformed theology. Prov 26.4 says ‘Do not answer a fool according to his folly lest you be like him. The danger is of making the errors of reformed theology the starting point for hypergrace theology. Reformed theology is very perfectionist. When it reads the word ‘righteous’ it sees an absolute abstracted and Platonic righteousness which can only be achieved by having Christ’s absolute righteousness. Has not hypergrace a version of this when it says ‘all sins past present and future are forgiven,’ (Now the problem with this idea is that it might allow Christians to sin with impunity, It does not directly encourage them nor necessarily does it mean that the teachers of this idea are encouraging sin). I believe that our acceptability to God is not based on our having absolute righteousness. We are acceptable to God because the Messiah is acceptable. He was raised for our justification. I believe we can have all the benefits of hypergrace without its controversial ideas. ‘Righteous’ must be understood covenantly. Of course in your understanding of how confession works you have not taken into account ‘and God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins’ and ‘forgive us our trespasses’.

  • Thanks Brian, I tend to not deal with grace as a theology per se as some of my “Hyper-grace” friends do. For example the phrase you suggest “all sins past, present, and future are forgiven” is not something I am likely to use. That term, while I don’t completely disagree with it, fails to convey the relationship aspect between God and his children. In fact it has the affect of reducing God once again to being a “cog in the machine” of my repentance and behavior modification program. I prefer to say I am God’s child and I am forgiven. Nothing, including my sin will ever change that…and then on occasion I feel a need to ask forgiveness for some bad action on my part. My ‘confession” flows from relationship, never from prescription.

• Paul Ellis, who has contributed to this site, would say ‘Forgiveness is a done deal’ i.e God never forgives actively in the new covenant. I would suggest that this idea is at the heart of the hypergrace movement and it gives rise to controversial ideas that Dr Brown is opposed to. If God does not actively forgive then we have a problem with 1 John 1.9. This is explained away. But we also have trouble with Matt 6.12 which is part of the Lords Prayer. This is dealt with saying that half of what Jesus said (we are never told which half) was meant for the Jews only. It is these tendencies that Dr Brown is opposed to. Now what you are describing as the basis for your confession is indeed a covenantal relationship based on Gods love (against such there is no law). This I contend is not hypergrace and it is a position that Dr Brown would agree with. I agree entirely that so much theology is mechanistic and therefore squeezes out God’s love. I accept that hypergrace has the goal of finding that secure place within God’s love but it uses its own cogs to get there. Hypergrace has answered reformed theology according to its folly.

• Forgive a second post but I was thinking about the metaphor of the cog and I was reminded of the mechanical devise called an orrery which described the motions of the planets. I then made the connexion with the three Magi who used the stars to find the Messiah. God uses cogs and mechanisms and mathematical formulae to lead people to him. In this way we might indeed find a place of God’s love and security in the Messiah using theological mechanisms. If we were utterly condemned by the sermon on the mount hearing that it did not apply to Christians may be the means by which we entered into the love of God more fully. But in the same way that the Magi’s finding Jesus by astrology does not endorse astrology people being helped by the cogs of hypergrace does not endorse these cogs. It reveals we are dealing with a gracious God. The problem then comes when these hypergrace cogs are challenged, the response is: ‘These are the ideas that helped me come into a place of grace and escape condemnation and if these ideas are refuted then the foundation for my security is taken away’ and ‘those opposed to hypergrace are also opposed to the goal of hypergrace which is the security of God’s love’. Nonetheless false teaching like astrology is false no matter how helpful to some it might be. For a mature relationship with God we must burn our astrological maps and dismantle our orreries.

• HYPER-GRACE
  Grace is not only Hyper but it is Super hyper – Romans 5:20-21 reads – “Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” The Greek word used for “abounded” in context of grace abounding is hyperperisseuō, there are two root words that are used for this word, the first word is Hyper, which is originally where we got the word hyper from. Not only that, the second part of the word expresses abounding or hyper is perisseuō which by definition means – to hyper/abound beyond measure, to hyper/abound exceedingly, to overflow and enjoy abundantly ~ Simon Wilson

• Maybe sinful grace is a better term. Of course the Reformation is no better. To find the hard truth one must go backwards past the Reformation and even past Nicea, pre-Nicea. But most can’t handle this.

• I have been saved since 1972 and my life has always been up and down spiritually speaking, certain sins, addictions and bad habits were insurmountable and as hard as I tried I could never get rid of certain things.

  At the point of giving up January 2010 I went on a 21 day fast thinking that God would acknowledge my effort and deliver me from these things in my life. I was always a strong opponent of eternal security as the Calvinists teach and always turned the television off or changed the channel whenever Joseph prince came on.

  After praying and pleading with the Lord for deliverance, early one morning during my fast I walked past the television and saw he was on, I automatically reached for the remote control to change the channel. I felt the Holy Spirit prompting me to listen to him. It took some convincing but eventually I submitted and listened saying to myself that I am mature enough to reject what ever is unscriptural.

  I still do not believe in unconditional eternal security as most modern grace preachers do but I do realise that God’s wonderful grace is so much more than I ever believed. and for the first time I realised that I could enter His rest and really believe the depth of His love for me.

  The struggle that I have waged for more than forty years for the first time is being won by His power and grace and as soon as I stopped struggling and left it in His arms believing that He will never leave or forsake me even though I was still caught in my bad habits.

  It took a while but things are so much better, I will never be so arrogant as to say I have overcome and my deliverance has anything to do with me but I can testify that it is wonderful being free and resting in the wonderful grace and love of my father in heaven.

  Dr Brown if you read this I implore you not to throw the baby out with the bath water as you have so rightly stated when you debated the cessationists of the strange fire conference, I admire your work and opinion but I must add that these teachings are revolutionising and Rejuvenating the way the gospel is being preached. In my rather small circle I have seen that the positives in the lives of my close friend and brethren regarding spiritual and relational growth cannot be ignored.

  This is my testimony for what its worth and the change in my live the past six years is astounding and I give my Lord all the glory

  • Thanks for sharing such a heart felt testimony Bobby!

    • At our weekly prayer meeting lat Wednesday night I was sharing about the amazing upsurge in my Christian life and how living a holy life is so much easier once I really started to believe and understand that I AM the righteousness of God in Christ already and don’t have to do anything to obtain or prove it.

      One of our members stated that we should be careful that we don’t teach baby Christians this it may give them a license to sin and prevent them fearing God.

      A great joy came in my heart when I realized that overcoming bad habits is so much easier since I really believe that He loves me more than I love my sin and this has given me the power to love Him more than I love my sin its all about relationship nor rules and regulations

      I shared this with the group and the need to especially teach young believers this gospel of good news because by not teaching them the completed work of the cross we are setting them up to fail because they start their walk with the Lord in condemnation and fear and there is no glory in that struggle only depression and anxiety

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